We’re no longer using our old ftp, rsync, and git links for distributing OpenSSL. These were great in their day, but it’s time to move on to something better and safer. ftp://ftp.openssl.org and rsync://rsync.openssl.org are not available anymore. As of June 1, 2024, we’re also going to shut down https://ftp.openssl.org...
Those are fairly weak arguments honestly, none which have anything to do with the features on GitHub itself. In fact, this could have been written by someone who has no development or project management knowledge
Open source projects also don't pay for GitHub.
Here's one counterargument. One of our projects failed because we wasted so much time arguing about the hosting that we didn't get much done. We moved between a few different services and wasted time comparing shortcomings between them.
In practice, migration from GitHub is actually super easy if you ever wanted to because they literally have an API for everything. It also is a really comprehensive service, and a lot of the open source ones are missing things
Im not a fan of Microsoft, but GitHub works really well and you can rely on it to be fully reliable (there have been few outages)
I don’t know how GitLab would make anyone terribly unproductive. I see many FOSS projects or even entire (proprietary) software companies choosing GitLab for source code management. In fact, the company I work at (a government contractor) uses GitLab, as well as many other FOSS tools. And it’s definitely not a FOSS company, our main customers are the police and military.
The switch process will be terribly unproductive. Also, even the process of discussing the change is a nightmare. Don't forget all the backend stuff that needs to change too from all downstream. It's not as easy as using the API and tools to copy the repo in this case.. Everyone from Fedora to Zedora is affected on their side because the upstream address will change
Sure, but their first choice for a data source is GitHub. For other platforms, they would need to develop and maintain an indexer/crawler (which you can block), which costs time and thus money. Just think about it, why would you upload my code to a platform, when you know that the owner of that platform actually hates FOSS and only wants to profit from it?
Microsoft actually contributes a lot to open source.. Why would they need an indexer / crawler? They already index everything using bing.. Then they just need a git pull.
What has Microsoft recently contributed to the FOSS community? I mean truly contributed. Why should a FOSS project use their proprietary products when other free (both as in price and as in freedom) alternatives exist?
Because they work.. Switching platforms offers no real benefits in any way, and Github is free for open source projects.
Dumb argument. The code editor/IDE is a personal choice of each developer. The software forge isn’t. I really doubt that anyone at OpenSSL is using VSCode (a bloated JavaScript mess) for C development. But if you need to use it, there’s VSCodium which is completely open source and removes the Microsoft tracking.
Yeah.. Sure.. Every developer I know these days except one uses VSCode. And we took him off the main team in our company because he was taking too long to do things (because we are all using copilot).
What exactly do you think Microsoft is tracking? Do you think they're peeking on developer webcams? Nope.. https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry . Crash reports are normal.. Its all GDPR anyway. I don't care if Microsoft knows what language I'm developing on
People should use what they want. It's actually bad for the community when people who contribute nothing try to project manage projects they have nothing to do with. It's their decision.. If you don't like it, fork OpenSSL to Gitlab and do your own thing.. Trust me, you'll notice that choosing Github vs Gitlab doesn't affect project success.
You can't think of it a single massive project. It's actually lots of small components.
We could argue the linux kernel is bloated too. The reality is though, provided the project is designed to be modular (as SystemD is), it actually makes sense to keep it together, to ensure there is a standard base and all the components are synchronised fully with their API's.
Isn't that a prerequisite for enshitification? Publicly-traded companies are required (by law, I think) to maximize profits for their shareholders, even if that means utterly ruining their original product (Reddit, Boeing, etc.), yes? What do you think?
In my case, I dropped one of my projects because there were so many trolls in the community who called my project crap
Honestly, the biggest enemy at times to the community is ourselves. It is sometimes so demotivating at times.
And the biggest trolls are often the ones with the least knowledge about running projects
It's like the wankers at the moment telling developers not to use GitHub or discord or whatever. They're not going to contribute resources or money to the project, but they'll be a backseat driver
Nobody worth listening to is complaining about creating an account on GitHub. Ubuntu brainstorm was a huge success and you had to create an account for that too
It literally takes 30s.
And github has a hugely comprehensive API that allows developers to easily move if that want to.
If Microsoft Open sourced the backend, the reality is, nobody would look at the code, and everyone would still use GitHub because it's reliable. Vs code is open source, and I'm willing to bet community contributions are limited
And open sourcing the backend just means Oracle will take the code, and set up their own server for marginally cheaper and make GitHub worse.. That's what they did with red hat
There is a massive GitHub API which you probably already aren't using. And now you want them to release the source code which you also won't look at?
If they open source the code, what contributions would you make? How many contributions have you made to the Lemmy code? How many with vs code?
How would it benefit open source projects given that GitHub hosting is free for open source? How would it benefit GitHub?
Would you host your own GitHub repo when you can host it for free (which it will be for open source) on GitHub or other services anyway
Some projects don't really benefit from open source.
If it's a big thing, host your own using an open source project. Compete against GitHub.
But calling me a shill isn't really an effective argument. I have contributed to a few open source projects in the past and released some of my own.
I don't feel like forcing companies to open source their projects is the way. Open source needs to win on it's own merits. And plenty of open source projects have (the Linux kernel as an example).
Have you contributed anything to githubs competitors? That might be a place to start. Because at the moment, there aren't any issues with GitHub that open sourcing would address. Microsoft don't need the additional resources
There's a reason GitHub is the largest service lol
You need to sell services based on their advantages rather than the politics. The reality is, github allows projects to be very easily migrated to other services anyway.
Using something because it's open source isn't helpful at all if it doesn't work with your workflow easily
Productivity is more important to the success of open source than anything else.
I know this, because a project of mine died because we wasted too much time on infrastructure
Developers don't need access to the GitHub source to do their job, and there is no advantage to anyone.
In fact, if they distribute the code, it simply reduces the incentive for Microsoft to improve it, and the only ones who will step are, are shit companies like Oracle
Lemmy has gotten to the point everything is getting classed as enshittification or whatever
It's actually getting crappy being here
Like the whole section about macos. Apple constantly screws developers, and somehow, the author has seemed to blame Valve lol. There's a lot of reason lots of people don't develop for Mac, and they're mostly valid rather than political
Or GitHub. In the real world, developers don't have any issues. Only in Lemmy, where people are even focusing on stupid things, so a barely visible unobtrusive sentence on a table mentions copilot lol
I had a project I gave up and dropped because of the general OSS community being crap.
There were a lot of supporters, but got tired of all the wankers I had to defend the project from. It simply wasn't worth it when I was putting in so much time for free
So, I agree entirely.
It's not everyone, but we do have a lot of donkeys out there honestly, and i suspect it has a bigger impact on the development community than we know
It's a worse issue though. Don't forget that companies like Sony have put literal rootkits onto their audio CD's as part of protection. And lots of owners have gotten screwed by updated protection schemes on legitimate hardware (which is why companies like Dune HD seemed to give up)
You're not only giving them permission to play back a movie, but, on BluRays, you give them permission to run code too on your player.
The house always wins with BluRays. They're not cheap, they can fail prematurely, and you can't back them up. And a lot of the companies have screwed us for decades now. It's absolutely insane
Unless you're buying from small companies, otherwise companies like Disney simply get more power
Here in Australian even, tried to donate stuff, and was loading things up, then was told they only accepted clothing that weekend. So had to reload it all back into my car.
Then they said they didn't want my pots and such.
At least here in Australia, they don't care about any donations unless they can sell it (they don't seem to care about actually giving anything less sellable to the poor for free).
They're not even selling the stuff for cheap either (so its bad for the poor too)
Started giving away a lot of it on Facebook for free.. Was extremely painless. And the savers nearby also had no issues accepting a lot of it too.
Never going back there. They suck for donations, for buying they're too expensive too.
If you check, there are lots of recently accepted patches to these projects
There can be lots of reasons, including those involved with background discussions that aren't in the bug report.
Sometimes it can be due to patches having a massive impact that are difficult to test but only fixes minor things, or they simply aren't that important.
I wrote a patch for a large project once though that fixed a critical NSIS installer bug when if a specific beta was installed earlier, you couldn't upgrade (but most people were using the betas). The patch was rejected because they wanted to break it up (but I couldn't because I needed to eliminate a big loop by converting it to small ones). So I gave up..
Project stopped a while later.. But this wasn't a normal scenario
How much have you donated to these projects? Trust me, some projects REALLY don't get many donations or volunteers. From my understanding, NTPd (not sure if its still the case), but it was literally being maintained by only 1 person
And Github has a REALLY extensive API to interact with from other servers too (even issues and such).
Peer to Peer stuff sounds awesome, except it's only as reliable as the nodes. And, Github is hosted on many servers, with a huge amount of redundancy. It's basically a privatised P2P system where each server is reliable, instead of a bunch of unreliable public hosts which might not have backing from a large corporation.
And whilst we're talking about reliability, even centralised stuff like Sourceforge is hosting code from 20 years ago. Whereas, it is difficult to load a torrent from 2 years ago lol
More importantly, why would you want to host code on a few likely-totally-unreliable computers, when you can host on a few servers which are bulletproof with redundancy?
It's getting a bit annoying honestly how people are telling other developers how to run their projects. And often these people don't even contribute anything
I personally hate discord, but I do use slack. Using discord or slack however doesn't make your code any less open source
If people want this, they can set up something for my projects, and convince users to go. If it's successful I'd join too. Otherwise, it's really just focusing on things that dont actually matter much. I've personally been part of a project which died because we focused too much on infrastructure
Great, well those FOSS enthusiasts can contribute something to the project if they want to dictate how it is run, or/and they can set it up and moderate it.
Again, projects need to be super careful not to get caught up in overheads than actually producing results. One of my projects we spent so much time jerking around with choosing source code systems and such, that we didn't really produce anything. You start nitpicking features, servers, long term reliability, etc, instead of just picking what you're familiar with which might be closed source but super popular.
I we go extreme, a hardcore FOSS user could even argue developers shouldn't use VS Code and argue they should use another tool. Well, if you're more productive with VS Code and produce more/better code though, use that, because its the results that matter.
The fact is, most projects get 0 donations and people do them as a hobby. If people seriously want this, they can contribute donations to projects to get them to switch
In fact, my most popular project made Slashdot front page 20 years ago, and I was actually using IRC. No help.. Just submitted issues or suggestions. The only donations I got were from people I knew. And donations aren't common for most projects honestly until they get much bigger, or they are operating an online service
There is nothing stopping people setting up communication channels and such on IRC and such though if they don't want to use the others
Not going to say lol. But it got mentioned in a magazine too.. It wasn't massive.. But, got a lot of attention for a short period.. But honestly, gave it up because I got sick defending it against haters. That being said, the same idea got adopted by a few distros soon after. So it's actually good that I did (as it would have ultimately been a waste of time)
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The Brother laser printers are awesome honestly. I own one too. Very cheap, and cheap enough to operate. If I want color, I go get it professionally printed (and professional photo printing STILL costs less than inkjets and their cartridges)
I've installed gentoo but there seems like there's so many sacrifices. I love that it's all open source, but I really don't mind closed source software now and then, because after all I would be using it to play closed source games. The biggest compromise I've observed is the very long build times. I have a lukewarm cpu(i3...
ALSA, Esound, OSS etc were always conflicting pre-pulseaudio. Sometimes you'd get sound, you'd always have to screw around with the sound server settings in different apps between KDE and Gnome apps, and gaming was a disaster. Even just using XMMS2 was a pain with Netscape/Firefox
It was a huge step forward, even with initial teething problems.
The only thing it didn't solve was low latency (for music production), and that's really the huge advantage of Pipewire. It did take a while to get there though..
In Xfree86 days, Linux wouldn't have had a future if PulseAudio wasn't released. It was one of those critical elements (along with Compiz, XrandR, DRI, Udev, PackageKit and Steam) which actually made Linux competitive against OSX and Windows at the time
This was back in kernel 2.2 / 2.4 days when Xfree86 still needed a configuration file
If you used DE's like Enlightenment or multiple desktops simultaneously, it only caused more issues.
Also, you HAD to configure what sound server you were using often in many apps, and I seem to recall even needing to set a path in some cases to the dev.
Pulseaudio was only problematic when it was first released.
You may have had a good experience with sound servers back then, but for the rest of us, it was a lot of additional configuration and messing around
That's my point. I've been using Linux from before xorg existed. Back in those days, things didn't auto configure.
Sorry, we'll agree to disagree here about sound servers..
Just because audio worked perfectly for you, I assure you, it wasn't the case for everyone else at the time. Not everything defaulted to OSS or ALSA. So, there was often additional configuration involved.
And pulse was the only one to convince everyone to drop their sound servers and provide a way to support them all. That's a huge accomplishment. Whilst it could be argued that ALSA had the potential to do so, maybe.. But they didn't
It was such a pity they didn't include JACK support though, because that seriously held back the Linux Music production community (which is mostly seamless in Windows and MacOS)
So far you guys have complained about something I can't replicate, and nobody actually tested except for me.
And then a feature which has no real impact on real developers, just people stealing code
Now you're complaining about this. Seriously, it's just nitpicking.
I didn't hear anyone complain when Firefox added pocket support and VPN options into their config.
Again, really not a big deal at all.. There's a reason no real developers are complaining about this stuff..
Also why doesn't it have any place here? It's a service GitHub offers related directly to development. And it needed a big red square around it so anyone even knew what op was referring to.
Next thing we know you guys will be complaining that the submenu contains links to their other services like issues and such (someone actually complained about GitHub offering too many features last thread... And they got upvoted for it simply because they claimed Microsoft was using features to extinguish other services or whatever).
The first guy complaining in the first thread didn't even have much source code commits on GitHub (and it seemed like it was a free account). But was making a huge deal about everything
If you're genuinely upset, write about it on the front page of your repos. But, I suspect the people complaining barely use GitHub anyway honestly
It's like covid where we got told we're all going to die from the vaccine and there will be super cancers or whatever.
Years later, and it hasn't happened.
Firefox made Google their starting page decades ago. They profit from it, have things gotten worse? No.... Better stop using Firefox and move to edge. But, based on your comment, they should have by now
This is literally a tiny non intrusive text just mentioning a service they offer. Everyone would be confused unless it didn't have that red square
Are vendors no longer even allowed to link to their own services now? Because in another thread, Microsoft literally got accused of this because they offered things like issue tracking in GitHub. It's apparently fine for other vendors to do this though.
May I recommend you complain about this on the front page of the github repos you own if you actually believe it's a big deal?
Most developers don't overreact about a service advertising it's own services on a service, using non intrusive text which nobody would have noticed without a red square around it.
The hilarious thing is I could go to any open source project and put a dozen red squares.
The fact that no actual projects on GitHub are getting angry about this should suggest it's an overreaction
People including myself tried this strategy for Linux before.. It's still not year of the Linux desktop
You're possibly right.. I don't use pocket.. But it doesn't get in the way for me.. But, firefox also has ads for their own VPN now too. But, I guess my point is, it really isn't that intrusive.
It definitely isn't intrusive in the way that Windows 11 hijacks your chrome tabs into Edge, and takes over on reboot (I hate apple, but I literally went out and bought a mac a week after tolerating that)
David, Nate, Josh, Marco, Carl, and Niccolò are here ready to answer all your questions on Plasma (all versions), Gear, Frameworks, Wayland (and how it affects KDE's software), and everything in between....
Firstly love the window tiling system. Have you thought about something similar to magnet which allows a window to fill 2 '/columns of the grid simultaneously?
Last week, I turned on my PC, installed a Windows update, and rebooted to find Microsoft Edge automatically open with the Chrome tabs I was working on before the update. I don’t use Microsoft Edge regularly, and I have Google Chrome set as my default browser. Bleary-eyed at 9AM, it took me a moment to realize that Microsoft...
i used to think that, but I cringe at myself. I'm not sure what other managers there are being paid, and in the CEO's defence, she was at Mozilla since the beginning, even through their bad times, pre-firefox days, and through their chrome days.
That being said, if its 6.9m dollars though, that is getting a bit high..
How do you know it is? Dpi is often wrong about both protocol. And size
123 isn't the normal protocol though, so let's assume it is malicious (I will admit I could be wrong here). Packet dumps is the way to prove it. If op posts packet dumps, that would be useful (as I could be wrong, the normal protocol is a different port generally though).
Also, important to note that if they're uk hs100 plugs, they have different firmware too.. The UK ones have one of the protocols shut off
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Does enshitification happen because companies are publicly-traded?
Isn't that a prerequisite for enshitification? Publicly-traded companies are required (by law, I think) to maximize profits for their shareholders, even if that means utterly ruining their original product (Reddit, Boeing, etc.), yes? What do you think?
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Is gentoo Linux really worth it?
I've installed gentoo but there seems like there's so many sacrifices. I love that it's all open source, but I really don't mind closed source software now and then, because after all I would be using it to play closed source games. The biggest compromise I've observed is the very long build times. I have a lukewarm cpu(i3...
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