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jsdz ,

vastly expands the pool of potential victims

I’m not brave enough at the moment to say it isn’t some kind of crime, but creating such images (as opposed to spamming them everywhere, using them for blackmail, or whatever) doesn’t seem to be a crime that involves any victims.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

I'm brave enough to say what I am sure some people are thinking.

If a pedophile can have access to a machine that generates endless child porn for them, completely cutting off the market for the "real thing", then maybe that's a step in a positive direction. Very far from perfect but better than the status quo.

The ideal ultimate solution is to develop a treatment that pedophiles can use to just stop being pedophiles entirely. I bet most pedophiles would jump on such a thing. But until that magical day maybe let's explore options that reduce the harm done to actually real children in the immediate term.

scrubbles ,
@scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech avatar

Some psychologists agree with you. Others say it would only make the problem worse, making them want to escalate. Definitely one that I’m letting the professionals debate on and I’ll go with their opinion

theneverfox ,
@theneverfox@pawb.social avatar

The consensus is that access to porn lowers rape. Does this extend to pedophilia? Probably, but not proven, in large part because of obvious reasons… testing this theory is super duper internationally illegal

SmoochyPit ,

My bigger concern is the normalization of and exposure to those ideas and concepts (sexualization of children). That’s also why I dislike loli/shota media, despite it being fictional.

That said, I still think it’s a much better alternative to CSAM and especially to actually harming a child for those who have those desires due to trauma or mental illness. Though I’m not sure if easy, open access is entirely safe, either.

ono ,

My bigger concern is the normalization of and exposure to those ideas and concepts

The same concern has been behind attempts to restrict/ban violent video games, and films before that, and books before that. Despite generations of trying, I don’t think a causal link has ever been established.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

In that regard, with books, games, movies, and drawings it’s easy to discern fantasy from reality. With an AI generated photograph that becomes increasingly difficult to do.

ono ,

with books, games, movies, and drawings it’s easy to discern fantasy from reality

I don’t think it is easy with movies or books, unless you are certain of the source.

Either way, we don’t have a causal link.

frog ,

but creating such images (as opposed to spamming them everywhere, using them for blackmail, or whatever) doesn’t seem to be a crime that involves any victims.

Well, there’s all the children whose photos were used for the training data. I’d consider them victims, since AIs can’t produce truly new images, so real human victims were needed in order to make AI images possible. And it’s been established that AIs need to be trained on new human-made content in order to develop, as the images become distorted when trained on AI-generated content, so unless the paedophiles can be convinced to be satisfied with the AIs as they currently are instead of wanting better/more varied child abuse images next year, a whole lot more real children will need to be abused and photographed in order to improve the AI.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

There's a lot of misconceptions about AI image generators in here.

They can indeed generate "truly new images", ask an image generator for an image of something that definitely doesn't exist in its training set and it'll likely be able to come up with something like that for you. Most importantly for purposes of this discussion, you don't actually need to have any images specifically of child abuse in a model's training set in order to train it well enough to produce images of child abuse. Train a model with a bunch of regular porn and a bunch of ordinary images of children and I expect it'll figure out how to make images of children in sexual situations if you ask it to.

This has been known for years. These AIs are capable of "understanding" the things they're trained on and creating novel interpretations of those things.

There was an article recently that showed if you trained many generations of AIs on just the outputs of previous generations you got degraded performance over time, but that's a pretty specific scenario that doesn't match what's being done in real life. In real life synthetic training data (ie, AI-generated training data) can be very useful for expanding the capabilities of AI as long as it's well-curated (humans need to select good outputs and ensure they're described correctly) and ideally has some of the earlier training set's original data included as well.

frog ,

So basically, in order to have AIs that make better child porn, there needs to be humans willing to go through vast quantities of AI generated child porn in order to properly curate the content for the AI. Since this labour is likely to be farmed out to innocent people in developing countries, being paid slave wages, I think it would be fair to add them to the list of potential victims of the creation of child porn AIs.

Onihikage ,
@Onihikage@beehaw.org avatar

Since this labour is likely to be farmed out to innocent people in developing countries

You don’t quite seem to understand how easy it is to train these AI models, and because of that, you’re missing a critical point - with open-source technologies like Stable Diffusion, which has models that can be refined and run on a consumer-grade graphics card, the people using models to generate images and the people creating and refining those models are the same people. People who want to generate brand new pokemon sprites can train a model on all the pokemon sprites until it looks good. A few absolute galaxy-brain nerds who want to generate MIDI spectrograms from a text description and convert the output into audio… can apparently do that. And of course, people who want to generate lots of hentai or photorealistic porn can create and fine-tune a model, or multiple models, all by themselves (I won’t link any of these, but hundreds are readily available, and thousands exist in total)

In other words, people who already consume CSAM are the people working on models for generating CP, and a subset of those have definitely been trying to make it work with only legal images so that the model itself can be distributed and used without breaking any laws, maybe even hiding in plain sight pretending it’s not for making CP. Someone else out there with a different set of fucked-up desires has probably trained a model on gore and snuff images and then used it to create “photos” of people they hate as mutilated messes. There’s sick people of all kinds all over the place, and the jury’s unfortunately still out on whether this new tool actually causes harm when used in such a manner, or if it’s just the newest way they can express their deviance. We don’t know yet.

But this genie is already out of the bottle. Banning the use of this technology for specific, narrow use cases just isn’t going to be effective without banning AI image generation entirely, and we’re past the point where that’s feasible. Image generation is a powerful tool that’s not going away; it’s on us now to figure out what we really believe about harm, health, and personal freedom, and what we want a society with this tool to look like.

Personally, I’m of a mind that if all the data going into the model is legally obtained, anything generated should be considered artistic expression. A person had a thought, then put their thoughts into a tool, which made a picture of those thoughts. No matter how repulsive those thoughts were, I think throwing people in prison for that kind of expression is thought-crime. There’s public obscenity at play, of course, but only once they take the step of showing it to other people. If it’s just for themselves, and nobody else sees it, who is harmed? Even if it does turn out that it harms the person generating the images (which wouldn’t surprise me), that makes it a health issue, like drugs or other addictions, not something to criminalize.

frog ,

Except if we’re talking about allowing regulated use of AI-generated child porn as a treatment for paedophilia (which is the core discussion in this thread, whether AI-generated child porn could be helpful), then it cannot be left to paedophiles themselves to create their own models based on the honour system of promising that nobody will use photos of real children in the training data. Just like absolutely no aspect of AI can be left unregulated, trusting on everyone to behave honourably… because so far, nobody has been. Not just in the field of AI-generated child porn. All of AI has been developed with an astounding level of unethical behaviour, and it’s nothing short of complete naivety to believe that anyone is going to behave ethically going forward. If AI is to be considered in any way ethical, then it needs regulation beyond simply asking people to pinky swear that they will only use legally and ethically obtained content for training. Regulation requires oversight and enforcement, otherwise regulation is meaningless. And you can’t regulate child porn AI without having innocent human beings subjected to the inputs and outputs to ensure regulations are being followed.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

As I said above, though, you don't need to make a model that's specifically "for child porn" in order for it to be able to generate child porn. There are already probably plenty of models that know what children look like and also know what porn looks like, made simply by teaching a model about lots of diverse subjects that happened to include both of those subject areas in them. You can even make new models by merging two existing models together or by adding more training to an existing model, so you wouldn't even need to have those images be part of the same training run.

I obviously haven't ever tried generating child porn, but I fired up my local Stable Diffusion with the Cyberrealistic model and generated a toddler on the moon and a toddler riding a lion. I'm reasonably confident that the model wasn't literally trained with images of toddlers in space suits or toddlers riding large wild predators, it was trained on those concepts separately and was able to figure out for itself how to combine them. Notice how it was able to figure out that a toddler on the moon would be in a space suit and re-proportioned the space suit accordingly, and that a saddle used by a toddler would probably have handlebars (I'm guessing it has a bunch of images of toddlers riding ponies that it got that idea from).

frog ,

@the_third did a very good post above explaining the problem with the idea of thinking AI-generated child porn would be as simple as asking for non-abusive photos of children to be combined with photos of adult porn. The AI needs to know what each component of the image should look like. AI knows what toddlers look like, and it knows what a lion looks like. Where do you propose the photos of child genitals should come from in order to create these ethical AI-generated child abuse images?

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

Medical textbooks.

frog ,

Probably fine for child abuse porn in a drawn style, like loli, but probably not sufficient for the photorealistic porn that it is supposedly intended to replace.

This is ultimately the flaw in your argument that an AI can produce “new” works because it doesn’t need to have seen a toddler riding a lion on the moon to be able to produce that image. If you didn’t give AI photos of lions, it would never be able to create a lion. If you never gave it photos of toddlers, it would never be able to do a picture of a toddler. And if there were no photos of the moon in its training data, it would be incapable of producing the moon. It cannot create things it has not seen. It can only arrange things it has seen in combinations that may or may not have been previously thought of (with billions of images in the training data, you can’t say there isn’t a Photoshopped photo of a toddler on the moon in there.)

Without actual child porn in its training data, it would never be able to produce any, because even when it’s capable of piecing individual elements together into a “new” piece (basically an advanced collage), if there’s no images of children being abused in the training data, it’s not going to be able to piece it together by putting a child’s head on an adult’s naked body, and result in anything that’s more satisfactory for paedophiles than actual photos of children. There is therefore no ethical means of producing AI-generated child porn, and therefore it is not an ethical alternative. Somewhere in the chain, there are still children being abused.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

I think you haven't made much use of image-generating AIs. They're quite capable of reinterpreting images into different styles. A very common use case for me is to draw a sketch of something and then tell an image AI to turn it photorealistic. The "automated collage" approach you describe is simply not how they work, it's a common misconception. Image AIs very much can create imagery of things that weren't explicitly in their training set, they're not just regurgitating pasted-together snippets.

You're also assuming that there are no literal photographs of children's genitals in medical literature. Again, I haven't exactly gone looking, but I'm sure there are some out there. Doctors can't afford to be prudish.

And finally, you can get plenty pornographic without even specifically showing off genitals.

frog ,

Oh, so you mean the photos in the training dataset that violate medical privacy, because parents who consented to photos of their child being included in textbooks and medical journals for educational purposes didn’t consent to photos of their child being used for AI-generated child porn for the sexual gratification of paedophiles? The only way photos of children from medical literature would be ethical to use for child porn is if the parents of the child have consented to that usage. Having had surgery last year, where photos were taken, I can confirm there are extensive consent forms to be filled out for what medical professionals can record (photos, videos, livestreaming, etc), and what they can use the visual records for (research, education/training, sharing cosmetic outcomes on social media, etc). Parents that will have checked the “can use photos of my child for research and education” will not have given informed consent for those photos to be inserted into an AI model for child porn, and are unlikely to give consent if “child porn AI” is a separate box on the consent form.

So… yeah, you’re not convincing me using medical photos of vulnerable children in hospital settings to create fapping material for paedophiles is an ethical use of AI technology.

And an AI without photos of lions is never going to be able to produce a photorealistic lion, even if you gave it a sketch of a lion, because it would have no frame of reference for what a lion is supposed to look like. It would make its best guess, which is fine for when it’s something that doesn’t really exist - but when humans know what a lion is meant to look like, they’ll know when an AI botches it.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

Oh, so you mean the photos in the training dataset that violate medical privacy

If they're published in a textbook then they're not private.

will not have given informed consent for those photos to be inserted into an AI model for child porn

Again, an AI model doesn't have to be created specifically for the purpose of child porn in order for it to be able to generate child porn. Most of these AI image models are very general purpose, they can create images of all kinds of things.

We're going in circles here and you're just getting angrier in your responses, I don't think this is headed anywhere useful at this point.

CorruptBuddha ,

Dude how are you going to regulate AI?!!

Like by all means go after people harming others, but man… You realize you have no control right? Black markets THRIVE in this world. Like fuck, they can’t even keep drugs out of prison.

frog ,

The fact that regulation is imperfect doesn’t mean the solution is to do absolutely nothing and let AI be used by bad actors (including those feeding real child porn into it) with impunity.

The entire conversation in the comments here have been “well if AI child porn stops paedophiles from hurting real children, then it has a use”, but in order to prevent real children being used for the training data, it has to be regulated. In fact, you’ll find that the majority of Beehaw users (since I notice you are from a different instance) are in favour of AI being properly regulated. “Some people will break the law anyway” is no excuse not to have laws.

CorruptBuddha ,

Sorry, I really don’t support your perspective. If you have reasonable suspicion to believe real child porn is being used in these models prove it to a judge and get a warrant. If someone is a bad actor to the point of criminal intent, prove it to a judge, and bring it to court.

frog ,

That’s not how the law works.

CorruptBuddha ,

Wrong.

frog ,

Right, actually. People who aren’t law enforcement can’t just walk into a court to ask a judge to give them a warrant to take action against a criminal. That is the job of the police. And it’s the job of government to decide what constitutes breaking the law. In due time, governments will, in fact, decide that using real child porn to train AI models is illegal, and enforcing that law will remain the purpose of the police. It will never be the job of private citizens to prove it to a judge, or to do anything else to the criminal except report the crime.

Libertarian, anarchist, and sovereign citizen deulisional fantasies are not reality. The law is literally structured around not having random people enforcing the law or investigating crimes.

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